Prayer - Chapter 7

I agree to with Tom regarding the material in chapter 7. I have grown to believe the purpose of prayer is to ask for wisdom, strength, patience, grace etc. However I have also seen what appears to be miracles that have come about as a result of prayer. According to one of the people directly involved, and his doctors, there was something other than modern medicine and technology at work in his recovery.

I believe there is no way we can understand what God can do or may do to affect the course of peoples lives. I do agree with the author that the most powerful result of prayer is to know God is with us and gives us stregth and that being in a community of faith let's us know we are not alone. That alone helps us havedthe strength, hope and peace to deal with the problems with which we are presented. That is essentially what we as Stephen Ministers do. We provide that community of support for those dealing with problems so they know they are not alone.

Chapters 6,7,8 Tom

Chapter 6 sounds like it comes out of the Stephen Ministry training manual. In fact, God, in Chapter 6, sounds an awful lot like a good Stephen Minister. He is always there, He doesn’t blame, He listens and He gives us the strength to deal with our suffering. But he doesn’t take any action to relieve the suffering. Guilt is usually misdirected but God’s ability to relieve guilt is dependent upon how we present God Stephen Ministry says God is the curegiver and we are the caregivers. Isn’t God more than a Stephen Minister?

I find Chapter 7 to be equally disturbing. The conclusion that prayer is ineffectual doesn’t coincide with my experience. I have given up making specific requests because I have found God’s imagination to be better than mine, but I do feel I have witnessed many miracles associated with prayer. Certainly the strength, courage and confidence we get from our faith through prayer do affect what happens in the world and that is a big part of how I believe God works, but I also have seen evidence of more direct action by God.

I understand that if you say that God does not cause or permit bat things to happen that you have to say that He is equally not responsible for good things happening. That also leads to Kushner saying that God can’t change what has happened and cannot change “the laws of nature”. But couldn’t God have created a universe with different “laws” and does time, as we know it, trump God’s power? I do agree that the suffering and challenges of this life, including death itself, are not nearly as important as our responses to them. The Christian testament shows that death of the body is not what is important, the health of the soul is. Based on the choices we make (free will) all these challenges offer the possibility of strengthening the soul. Of course we can choose differently and create “martyrs of Satan”. But God does not intervene with our free will not because he “can’t” but because He chooses not to. Free will must be allowed because without it love, which has to be a choice, is not possible.

I see more clearly now the power of prayer through community and by getting in touch with God. But even Jesus asked God to change the course of events and prayed that the cup be passed from Him. Of course he added "Thy will be done". Does God cause miracles to happen or are we simply catylists for change through prayer as God works through us for His purpose?

Chapters 6 speaks to the Stephen Minister who often has to love the (at least temporarily) unlovable. People who are hurting are often blaming themselves or nurturing the thought that they must have done something wrong and that even God has abanodoned them. They push people away and make it harder to let in care.

We can help them"stop hurting themselves" by giving sympathy: "you are not a bad person"..."God is not punishing you".

If God leaves us free to choose either good or bad and doesn't intervene to redirect our decisions then our prayers should be only for the knowledge if His will for us. Right? And further, our prayers for healing, and for safe travel, and for protection are all said with, "thy will be done", knowing that God does not will us to be sick, in danger, nor does He put us in peril. Right?

How do we respond too Jesus' directive to pray, "...and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil?" Is it that we are praying for God to help us choose the good but if we don't, praying for Him to be there for us and help us "get through it?" (the evil).

When my sister lost her son, Adam at age 19 in a fatal car crash, her faith and trust in God ended for two years. God was no longer her refuge or her strength. God became her enemy along with Hallmark Cards. The sorrowful words of comfort only served to sting and irritate. I am convinced that we try to fill all of those "empty moments" with words and more words, when the most comforting gift we can give is our presence and our faith. She now knows that God was and is the one constant in her life. That when the stress and fear of an overwhelming time in our lives, God is the one steady and constant protector. He is our strength. We only need to trust our faith which God has given us so much of.

The answer to tragedy is not, "Why did this happen?" but, "What do I do now that it HAS happened!" I get that. And I also get that we humans try and take control and act independently of God which is what has gotten us in trouble since we bit the apple. What I don't get is when if ever does God act in the world in response to our prayerful petitions? Is there such a thing as "divine intervention"? What "good"are healing services? Is God working in this world totally through us? That's OK I get that too! What say Y'all???

David

As I read chapter 4, what I saw was the idea that much suffering is caused by the natural laws that consistantly govern the world. That God's greatness is shown by this consistancy and not by miracles. That if God were involved in rescuing the righteous, he would create a world that had no consistancy and that we couldn't handle that. That these "laws" are inanimate and impersonal. They neither "know" or "care" who is righteous. "That the rain falls on the just and the unjust." The question is why did God create a world like that. Chapter 4 seems to say that, in addition to the discussion above, it is because pain is useful and death in this world is better than living forever. I wasn't really satisfied with that answer. I found chapter 5 more persuasive with its discussion of free will. I have long felt that the suffering we face is less important than our reaction to it. Our physical self (animal self according to Kushner) lives in this world of uncaring but consistant rules and good and bad choices, but our spiritual self, our divine self has the free will to respond with either good or bad choices. The challenges we face are the exercise equipment that can strengthen or injure our souls depending on how we choose to react to them.

Free will

I missed last Sunday's meeting, but as I read through the first 3 chapters it kept occuring to me that the concept of free will was missing until I began chapter 4. Now I see Kushner was building the case for free will by discussing in detail all the other reasons we have developed in our culture for why bad things happen if God is a loving God. The greatest gift we could be given is freedom...... and this includes the understanding that our decisions in life have consequences. Having said this, we still experience in life, and in Stephen Ministry, that bad things can still happen even after we have made what we believe are good decisions. The reason good people may suffer is simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being affected by someone else's bad decision.

Sunday's Discussion

We had a good discussion Sunday during meditation time. We seemed to agree that it is not God that makes bad things happen to good people. That it is just "the way life is." Amma Susan's sermon was quoted "God doesn't get you into it, but He will get you through it." There was some concern that the book was written by a Jewish Rabbi and was, therefore, not Christian, but as we searched for issues, we found a number of "Christian" points of view in the book. In discussing Chapter 3, we felt that we could hold all three propositions to be true - God is omnipotent, God is just, and some suffering people are good - if we realize that God chose not to control this world in order to give us free will. Much of the suffering in the world, we felt, was due to human error in the exercise of free will. That's what I remember. Let us know your views. +Tom

Whoops! Sorry about the spelling. Should have checked it before posting.
Amma Susan+

First blog

This is my first posting. I love this book. Kushner doesn't pull any punches or retreat into theological platitudes. This age old question had led to a crisis of faith for so many. Our author meats the hard question head-on. I look forward to our "little chats" on this site.
Amma Susan+

Thanks, Fr. Jim, for doing this!

I'm in!!

If this post appears, I think we have it fixed.

OK, Fr. Jim! I think we have it fixed.

I have invited you to post to the blog!

Tom mentioned today that it was your opinion that I needed to invite each of you to post to the Stephen Ministry blog.  I have done so this afternoon and each Stephen Minister and Leader should receive an invitation in your email.

Fr. Jim+

Continuing Education Schedule

St. Catherine’s Stephen Ministry
Summer Continuing Education Schedule

"When Bad Things Happen to Good People"

Week                    Week of Date                       Chapter
1                               June 5                                   1
2                               June 12                                 2
3                               June 19                                 3
Supervision              June 26                Review Chapters 1-3
4                               June 26                                 4
5                               July 3                                    5
Supervision             July 10                  Review Chapters 4-5
6                               July 10                                 6
7                               July 17                                 7
8                               July 24                                 8
Supervision              July 24                  Review Chapters 6-8

All Stephen Ministers are requested to participate in the blog dialogue for each chapter as well the Supervision discussion on June 26, July 10, July 24 in order to satisfy the Continuing Education requirement.

You can discover more about the author and the book at this link

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Bad_Things_Happen_to_Good_People

 

Fr. Jim+

Stephen Ministry Retreat

This summer our Stephen Leaders have suggested we try out a different form of continuing education for Stephen Ministry.  We will be using Rabbi Harold N. Kushner’s famous book, “When Bad Things Happen to Good People.”  We invite you to join us in this study using the books and materials we will distribute in our upcoming Stephen Ministry Retreat.  And, of course, to let us know how this type of forum works for everyone involved.

 

Thanks and I look forward to the conversation.

 

Fr. Jim+